Comments on: Where Are All the Womyn?

By: Marie

Marie — Fri, 13 Mar 2009 20:41:33 +0000

Thanks, Marsha!

By: Marsha

Marsha — Fri, 13 Mar 2009 16:43:06 +0000

Speaking of genre, Norilana books has a collection of SF short stories called, WARRIOR WISEWOMAN. And a second installment forthcoming.

http://www.norilana.com/norilana-sf.htm#ww

By: mordicai

mordicai — Wed, 11 Mar 2009 17:28:45 +0000

I get that the “y” in woman is trying to subvert the whole “man” means person, “woman” means not-man. I just think there are ways to go about it that are more fun, from an etymological point of view. That is how I get my kicks—feminist etymology, baby!

Are you calling me a fanboy?! Kidding. Anyhow, I feel like the stereotypical “fanboy” likes the ILLUSION of a strong women—but one that ultimately fails & requires rescuing/is sullied & becomes evil.

(Sidebar: I don’t think Wonder Woman will “work” until she’s be reunited with her kinky, bondage past.)

Another trope, beloved of Joss Whedon—the Ass Kicking Austistic girl. River Tam & Echo, for instance.

By: Marie

Marie — Wed, 11 Mar 2009 15:55:10 +0000

Miriam: Yes, I totally read the Alanna books.

Kristin: I think Alanna’s daughter is Ali? From the Trickster books? They were so much fun. And I’m totally with you on Frankie Landau-Banks. Haven’t read Saving Francesca, but it’s in my To Be Read Pile, since after I read Jellicoe Road I immediately wanted everything Melina Marchetta has ever written. Oh, and I see on her website that she’s got a new fantasy novel! But it’s only out in Australia, darn it all…

Vic: Isabella is an awesome suggestion. She’s definitely a tough cookie.

I’m very interested in your theory that fanboys are drawn to tough women, and I echo your question “Wassup with that?” I mean, it definitely makes me think highly of fanboys.

I feel like Mordicai will have something to say about this…M?

By: sarah

sarah — Wed, 11 Mar 2009 15:32:59 +0000

here’s a hypothesis, just to throw it out there:

we’ve been talking about gender and violence, and noticing a genre gap. but maybe it would be better to think about genre and violence as the primary rubric?

Because one question would be: what space, what moral import, does a given “genre” grant to violence? One thing to propose is that in the world of SF and particularly fantasy, violence is itself not condemned—even if it’s not approved of, it’s accepted as necessary. So both men and “womyn” can wield it w/o moral critique, or at least the same kind of moral critique.

By: Marie

Marie — Wed, 11 Mar 2009 14:15:37 +0000

Miriam: Yes, Britomart! Of course! I don’t know about Cleopatra….I think if a character dies from circumstances related to her bad assedness, that might exclude her, since then the writer’s message seems to be that such women can’t survive.

Uh oh. Eliot awakes! Must feed the creature! More later!

By: Vic

Vic — Wed, 11 Mar 2009 06:53:18 +0000

Also:
Isn’t the ‘tough but morally good woman’ trope a fairly recent development?

At least, based on my own extensive readings in classic literature (ha!), it seems like these have been mutually exclusive qualities for female characters—a woman is only virtuous if she’s delicate, and vice versa (Ophelia in Hamlet and Isabella in Measure for Measure come to mind.)…unless she’s dressed as a man, that is (Viola in Twelfth Night, Rosalind in As You Like It). While toughness/manliness usually seems equated with wickedness (…Damn, I’m blanking…Mrs. Jewkes in Samuel Richardson’s Pamela).

How about Britomart in The Faerie Queene? She’s tough. Though I guess she dresses as a knight.

And I’ve always thought of SF/F as being overwhelmingly male—creators and audiences alike. If that impression’s correct, maybe fanboys are more into tough women than their more literary counterparts? (Or more drawn to strong female characters in their fiction, at least?) I know I was back in my fanboy days. Weird. Wassup with that?

By: Vic

Vic — Wed, 11 Mar 2009 05:55:48 +0000

The Bride – Kill Bill
Katchoo – Strangers in Paradise (comic)
Jennifer Jason Leigh’s Dorothy Parker – Mrs. Parker and the Vicious Circle (though not so much physically tough…)
Marion Ravenwood – Raiders of the Lost Ark
Lady Jaye – G.I. Joe
Nikita – La Femme Nikita (the film, not either of the bastardizations)

And my favorite, Veda (who seemed pretty damn tough when I was 8 years old):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hV1jO1Qu3Qo

By: Kristin Cashore

Kristin Cashore — Wed, 11 Mar 2009 04:33:40 +0000

I LOVED JELLICOE ROAD. (And have you read Saving Francesca? My other Marchetta favorite.) Here’s another from YA this year: The Disreputable History of Frankie Landau-Banks. Frankie is a force to be reckoned with! But again, all YA…. Oh, and as long as we’re listing Tamora’s Pierce’s kickass women, there’s Daine (Dane?) and Kel, too, and Alanna’s daughter, whose name I’m forgetting, AND the women from the Circle of Magic books…. sigh… I love Tamora Pierce…. which is another way of saying yes, I, for one, read the Alanna books )

I vaguely remember Mrs. Weasley doing some serious (magical) harm to someone in a fight when one or more of her cubs are in danger?

By: Miriam

Miriam — Wed, 11 Mar 2009 03:43:09 +0000

Brunhilde, yes, but Kundry, moreso.

I’d also add Athena in the Odyssey, who breathes strength into all the characters. And what about Britomart, Bradamante, and Bonduca/Boudicca? Shakespeare’s Cleopatra?

And did anyone else read the “Alanna” books (“The Woman Who Rides Like a Man,” etc)? (Yes I know it’s YA fantasy genre and that doesn’t really help).