Where Are All the Womyn?
My friend Sarah is in search of examples of women characters who are tough agents. They could beat you up if they had to, but they are also inherently good—or, at the very least, we are meant to sympathize with and admire them. You know, like Buffy the Vampire Slayer:
(cover art: Jo Chen)
Or Starbuck from Battlestar Galactica, Ripley from Aliens, Katsa from Graceling, Katniss from The Hunger Games, Aerin from The Hero and the Crown, etc. Sarah posed this question to her Facebook page, and as examples began to accrue, I was struck by how many of them belong to genre fiction/television/film. What I mean is: women who kick butt and take names AND are “morally good” characters tend to be found in Science Fiction & Fantasy stuff, and Young Adult novels. I am really, truly hard pressed to come up with any examples from classic literature. Why is this? Is SF/F and YA just more welcoming to this type of character? If so, why? Because it assumes its readership/viewership is mainly composed of women? Can you answer any of these questions, or come up with more examples?
>>>>BSG SPOILERS<<<<<<
p.s. I am getting increasingly glum about how Battlestar Galactica is going to finish. I never thought it was going to be a shiny, happy finale, but gods, things are looking dark. It seems that the prophecy that Starbuck is the “harbinger of death” has not been solved, as we were led to believe, and the show’s recent attention to Cylon projection makes me wonder if they’re all going to die, but will learn first how to project, even the humans, so they can go to a happy place in their heads before the lights go out.
I hate the term womyn. If you really want to deconstruct gender (but don’t want to be QUEER about it—womyn only reinforces gender dichotomy, lets be clear) I vastly prefer we take the etymological route. “Man” is actually REALLY a gender neutral term—compare to “woman” or “wyfman” for female, & “wereman” for male. I think wereman & woman are the way to go, here.
Second, dude, there will be a BSG “happy” ending. It will be “there is no magical solution for cylon/human relations—just living together, day by day” but that is how it will go.
Third: Sarah Conner.
Madame DeFarge! Oh, except we don’t want her to win. D.J. Schwenk! But she’s YA. Jo March! YA? Miss Marple! Genre. Charlotte the Spider? Sigh. This is a great question, and the answer should not be so hard.
Thank you for always warning about BSG spoilers, btw. I’m a season behind; the blogosphere is becoming increasingly perilous for the likes of me.
I’m going to rack my brains on this question. Tons of heroines are coming to mind—Kristin Lavransdatter, the Austen heroines, Dorothea Brooke—but I don’t know that I see any of them kicking people’s butts. Though I wouldn’t put it past Elizabeth Bennet or Marianne or Elinor Dashwood.
Mordicai: I’m not an expert on the word womyn, but I would guess that those who use it don’t object to the gender dichotomy created so much as they do to the fact that “man” means “person” and woman means “female person.” It’s the qualification that’s the problem—like being called an authoress. Why can’t I be just a person? Why can’t I be just an author? I’ve no problem with “womyn”….though I’m also taken by your “wereman/woman” suggestion. But then I’d want to be a wereman, ‘cause it just sounds nifty.
Sarah Connor! Good suggestion.
Kristin: Very interesting examples! I’m not familiar with all of them (Who’s DJ Schwenk? Kristin Lavransdatter?) Charlotte’s a really good one, because we know full well she’s a deadly, bloodsucking creature.
I’ve been thinking about intellectually formidable women, too, and I think that there should be a dangerous element to them…with Starbuck or Katsa, for example, it’s not just that they’re tough. They could also be scary, and you don’t want to be on their bad side.
I suspect that, in classical literature, most intellectually agile women characters aren’t dangerous in their element AND good. Mme de Merteuil from Dangerous Liaisons, for example. Super smart. Super evil.
Hmm. Veronica Mars is super smart, dangerous in her element, and good. But not classic lit.
subject change
Ah, Battlestar Galaaaaaactica! I wish it were pudding and I had a spoon to gobble it all down. Lucky you to be a little behind, because then you won’t have to wait in agony like me for the final episodes.
Whew! Long post.
Marie, you are an absolute peach.
Kristin Cashore, if you see this, Marie gave me your book as a random present and it was WONDERFUL WONDERFUL WONDERFUL and i’m very grateful to have it. thank you.
Mordecai: Hi! Nice to meet you! FWIW, at the point in my life when i was prone to using the word “womyn,” which is not now, I did not do it to deconstruct gender. I wanted to reify and affirm gender difference, because I thought that men sucked. i agree now that it’s completely irritating, but again, that’s what was useful about it at the particular 16-and-crabby phase I was at.
re: violent women! well, there is “woman warrior.” other than that, the one mainstream “classic” that comes to mind is Beloved. But even though Sethe is sympathetic, her violence isn’t at all. There are several novels that thematize women’s violence in defense of their children (ranging from Uncle Tom’s Cabin to Mrs. Weasley in the final Harry Potter). I think that we, as a culture, are willing to believe that motherhood is potentially violent. But that raises the question of whether motherhood is essential to or simply supplementary to an individual’s identity as a woman.
We also believe in the motif of the virgin warrior, ie, joan of arc. there are lots of young women who dress as men (yeah? I think?) and go to do battle, but once their sexuality is revealed, their violence is given up.
these are just half-formed thoughts. I’m still thinking on this one.
Marie, you know, I tend to get annoyed with people who throw names around and don’t explain them, which means that right now I’m annoyed with myself. Sorry about that! Kristin Lavransdatter is a book by a Norwegian writer, Sigrid Undset, that I positively FELL IN LOVE WITH when I read it a few years ago. It’s enormous—about 1100 pages—and just gorgeously written. KL is a fascinating character. If you read it, definitely go for the recent translation by Tiina Nunnally, NOT the translation by two stuffy old guys whose names I can’t remember! Heck, while I’m at it, here’s the Amazon link for informational purposes! It takes place in 14th century Norway, so I’ll just warn you that it’s heavy on Christianity themes.
And DJ Schwenk is the awesome star of the Dairy Queen books by Catherine Gilbert Murdock—Dairy Queen and The Off Season, both out now, and Front and Center, coming out in the fall. Let’s just say she’s a high school student who is more interested in playing football than painting her toenails. And I, for one, would definitely not want to challenge her to a fight!
Oooo, that Dangerous Liaisons woman… shiver… have never read the book, but it’s one of my favorite movies.
I’ll keep racking my brain! (Or is it “wracking?” I’m never sure what that word is)
Finally, Sarah, you are so sweet—thank you so much
I’m so glad you liked it 
)
Sarah: Right! Joan of Arc! Also, I remembered Brunhild of the Liebelungenlied (hope I spelled that right), who’s super strong. But she gets tricked by a shifty man and also loses her strength after her wedding night, so she doesn’t count. Oh, and poor Joan had to die.
Re: women dressing up as men in ye olde literature: there were plenty of saint stories about women cross-dressing and sneaking into monasteries because they wanted SO much to be monks. But I seem to remember (did we learn this in Claire Sponsler’s class, Sarah?) that this kind of tale was a bit of naughtiness for the monks (i.e., “Ooooh. What if a WOMAN were HIDDEN AMONGST US?”).
Kristin: thanks so much for the reading suggestions! I’m excited already. 14th cent. Norway sounds like just my thing. And, speaking of tough ladies, have you read Jellicoe Road by Melina Marchetta? Love it, and the angry young Taylor Markham, too.
What does Mrs. Weasley do? I can’t remember.
Brunhilde, yes, but Kundry, moreso.
I’d also add Athena in the Odyssey, who breathes strength into all the characters. And what about Britomart, Bradamante, and Bonduca/Boudicca? Shakespeare’s Cleopatra?
And did anyone else read the “Alanna” books (“The Woman Who Rides Like a Man,” etc)? (Yes I know it’s YA fantasy genre and that doesn’t really help).
I LOVED JELLICOE ROAD. (And have you read Saving Francesca? My other Marchetta favorite.) Here’s another from YA this year: The Disreputable History of Frankie Landau-Banks. Frankie is a force to be reckoned with! But again, all YA…. Oh, and as long as we’re listing Tamora’s Pierce’s kickass women, there’s Daine (Dane?) and Kel, too, and Alanna’s daughter, whose name I’m forgetting, AND the women from the Circle of Magic books…. sigh… I love Tamora Pierce…. which is another way of saying yes, I, for one, read the Alanna books
)
I vaguely remember Mrs. Weasley doing some serious (magical) harm to someone in a fight when one or more of her cubs are in danger?
The Bride – Kill Bill
Katchoo – Strangers in Paradise (comic)
Jennifer Jason Leigh’s Dorothy Parker – Mrs. Parker and the Vicious Circle (though not so much physically tough…)
Marion Ravenwood – Raiders of the Lost Ark
Lady Jaye – G.I. Joe
Nikita – La Femme Nikita (the film, not either of the bastardizations)
And my favorite, Veda (who seemed pretty damn tough when I was 8 years old):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hV1jO1Qu3Qo
Also:
Isn’t the ‘tough but morally good woman’ trope a fairly recent development?
At least, based on my own extensive readings in classic literature (ha!), it seems like these have been mutually exclusive qualities for female characters—a woman is only virtuous if she’s delicate, and vice versa (Ophelia in Hamlet and Isabella in Measure for Measure come to mind.)…unless she’s dressed as a man, that is (Viola in Twelfth Night, Rosalind in As You Like It). While toughness/manliness usually seems equated with wickedness (…Damn, I’m blanking…Mrs. Jewkes in Samuel Richardson’s Pamela).
How about Britomart in The Faerie Queene? She’s tough. Though I guess she dresses as a knight.
And I’ve always thought of SF/F as being overwhelmingly male—creators and audiences alike. If that impression’s correct, maybe fanboys are more into tough women than their more literary counterparts? (Or more drawn to strong female characters in their fiction, at least?) I know I was back in my fanboy days. Weird. Wassup with that?
Miriam: Yes, Britomart! Of course! I don’t know about Cleopatra….I think if a character dies from circumstances related to her bad assedness, that might exclude her, since then the writer’s message seems to be that such women can’t survive.
Uh oh. Eliot awakes! Must feed the creature! More later!
here’s a hypothesis, just to throw it out there:
we’ve been talking about gender and violence, and noticing a genre gap. but maybe it would be better to think about genre and violence as the primary rubric?
Because one question would be: what space, what moral import, does a given “genre” grant to violence? One thing to propose is that in the world of SF and particularly fantasy, violence is itself not condemned—even if it’s not approved of, it’s accepted as necessary. So both men and “womyn” can wield it w/o moral critique, or at least the same kind of moral critique.
Miriam: Yes, I totally read the Alanna books.
Kristin: I think Alanna’s daughter is Ali? From the Trickster books? They were so much fun. And I’m totally with you on Frankie Landau-Banks. Haven’t read Saving Francesca, but it’s in my To Be Read Pile, since after I read Jellicoe Road I immediately wanted everything Melina Marchetta has ever written. Oh, and I see on her website that she’s got a new fantasy novel! But it’s only out in Australia, darn it all…
Vic: Isabella is an awesome suggestion. She’s definitely a tough cookie.
I’m very interested in your theory that fanboys are drawn to tough women, and I echo your question “Wassup with that?” I mean, it definitely makes me think highly of fanboys.
I feel like Mordicai will have something to say about this…M?
I get that the “y” in woman is trying to subvert the whole “man” means person, “woman” means not-man. I just think there are ways to go about it that are more fun, from an etymological point of view. That is how I get my kicks—feminist etymology, baby!
Are you calling me a fanboy?! Kidding. Anyhow, I feel like the stereotypical “fanboy” likes the ILLUSION of a strong women—but one that ultimately fails & requires rescuing/is sullied & becomes evil.
(Sidebar: I don’t think Wonder Woman will “work” until she’s be reunited with her kinky, bondage past.)
Another trope, beloved of Joss Whedon—the Ass Kicking Austistic girl. River Tam & Echo, for instance.
Speaking of genre, Norilana books has a collection of SF short stories called, WARRIOR WISEWOMAN. And a second installment forthcoming.
http://www.norilana.com/norilana-sf.htm#ww
Thanks, Marsha!